Don't Drink Your Sunscreen

In this episode, Ariel breaks down the science and history of sunscreen, covering UVA/UVB/UVC radiation, how SPF actually works, mineral vs. chemical filters, and the newly FDA-approved ingredient bemotrizinol — the first new sunscreen active ingredient approved in the U.S. since the 1990s. The group chat then myth-busts the biggest sunscreen claims making the rounds online: hormone disruption, "sunscreen causes cancer," reef damage, skin irritation, and the viral watermelon-smoothie trend claiming lycopene can protect you from the sun.

Olivia presents some good news: A Lancet study showing HPV and measles vaccines prevent more deaths per dose than any other vaccine funded through Gavi, giving global health leaders a clearer way to prioritize funding amid tighter budgets. Also, stick around to hear Mattie's takes on Meta's Muse Image AI feature and the backlash that got it pulled.

Recalls:
Find all recent recalls at: https://www.fda.gov/safety/recalls-market-withdrawals-safety-alerts

Referenced Research Article (if you wanna be a nerd and read it): 

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(26)00555-6/fulltext

Transcript

Olivia 0:13

Welcome to Public Health Group Chat, the podcast that wants you to avoid Taylor Farm's lettuce because epidemiological tracking has identified them as the most likely suspect about why America is shitting their pants. So yep. Don't eat it. Don't do it. Don't do it. All views are our own in this podcast. And my name's Olivia. My name's Ariel.

Ariel 0:36

And my name is Maddie. And if you would like to reach out to us, you can find us by email at publichealthgroup chat at gmail.com. You can find us on Instagram or TikTok at public health group chat. And we now have a shop on T Public. If you want to get a really cool shirt or a sticker or magnet or socks or whatever, you can rock our logo or our undeclared design. And if you've been listening for a while, you'll know exactly what we're talking about.

Olivia 1:01

Yeah, and you could consider subscribing via our Buzz Sprout website, which is in the linked in our show notes. Our subscription episodes are fun little tidbits and shorter episodes about us. We're also taking um questions from listeners, but we also will be using our subscription episodes to put out more um relevant episodes, such as like what's going on with Taylor Farms and the Cyclospora bullshit, the shitstorm that's happening. So you definitely want to subscribe. And also, if you're nosy, we are going to be doing an episode with our significant others. So if you ever want to know what it's like to be married to andor date a public health person, they will tell it to you. Nothing held back. So yeah, it's gonna be really fun to see them not know how to answer any of our questions. So I can't wait.

Good News in Public Health

Olivia 1:48

Okay, so um we have a fun topic today, but I know we want to start with public health good news. Um, I will say it was kind of hard to find good news this week. So that was quite fun for me, but there is a paper that just came out in The Lancet, which is a journal that every public health researcher would love to be in. It's kind of the creme de la creme. Um, and it is a paper that was a it's a massive modeling study. It's where researchers built a mathematical model to estimate what disease and death rates would look like without vaccines and then compare them to real world outcomes. So they crunched a bunch of numbers and they looked specifically at this organization called Gavi the Vaccine Alliance, which is a global public health public-private partnership, and they help get vaccines to children in low and middle income countries. It's funded a huge chunk of global immunization scale-ups and projects since the early 2000s. What they found was that there's certain vaccines that are really punching above their weight. So the HPV and the measles vaccines are preventing more deaths per a thousand doses than any other vaccine study that they've implemented through these countries. Um, HPV came out on top with measles right behind it. And so why does this matter really? Well, uh, Gavi is facing tighter country budgets right now. You can thank RFK Jr. for this one. So the paper gives decision makers an apples to apples way to compare vaccines against each other, like a bang for your bucks for for each vaccine. Measuring how many deaths and how much overall illness each vaccine prevents per thousand doses. It's kind of unsexy. It's a lot of research. But basically, what I'm trying to say is now they have a quantifiable way to say we should fund this moving forward, which is super cool because it has to be really helpful for them to have a way to show the data to the countries that are still sponsoring it, to be like, this is the work we're doing, this is what's most important. And I think it also, yeah, I guess just helps like focus their efforts since they are more limited now, unfortunately.

Ariel 3:49

Yeah, thank you for sharing this, Olivia. This is super interesting. I will have to read the article. The first question that popped into my mind, did they do some kind of analysis of like the economic impact, or was it only in terms of lives saved?

Olivia 4:03

It was in terms of Dallas. So what does Dallas mean for, guys? Disability adjusted life years. Um that was so impressive. You just whipped that out of your ass so quickly.

Main Section: Sunscreen

Olivia 4:16 Ariel 4:17

All right, so today we are gonna talk about sunscreen. So if you live someplace sunny like Colorado, you'll definitely want to listen to this episode. And I don't feel like I need to define sunscreen, but I'll do it anyway. So sunscreen, sometimes called sunblock or SPF, is a topical cream like a lotion that protects the skin from sun-induced damage like burning, aging, and skin cancer. We've all seen sunscreen, the grocery store, the pharmacy, right? Ranging from the cheap store brand with that unmistakable smell to those more premium brands that don't smell as much, have nice packaging, and a larger marketing budget to go along with them. Looking at you, goop. Or no, sorry, looking at you, super goop.

Mattie 5:05

I was like, don't slander. There will be no super goop slander in this house. We can slander goop, we cannot slander super goop.

Ariel 5:13

I know I meant to say super goop, I just forgot the super. Anyway, so we're gonna pause here. And Olivia and Maddie, can you tell me and the listeners, one, if you tend to tan or burn, and two, just about your son's safety habits.

Mattie 5:27

I want to retell my sun poisoning story so bad, but I'm not going to because it's already been documented. But if you want to hear more about Maddie's sun routine, please refer to our first episode where I talk about getting. I thought I had yellow fever and actually had sun poisoning. I do this like really fun thing where I turn bright red and then I tan. I don't really like burn per se, but it'll be like red for a day and then I'm like tan. Yeah, I have never tanned in my entire life other than fake tanning. Um I have a negative amount of melanin in my body, um, unfortunately. And I am the whitest and most freckled Italian you'll probably ever meet. It's incredibly embarrassing as an Italian. And now that I have red hair, I look like a Myer-ish even more. So that's I'm just really leaning into it. Just embracing it. I I wear sunscreen on my face in my foundation, and I need to start wearing it on my shoulders more because I'm noticing that's where like a lot of the sun exposure is happening these days. Yeah. I have two toxic traits I'm about to discuss about myself. One, I am terrible at wearing sunscreen on my face. I'm really bad about it in my day-to-day life. I just like forget to put it on. I don't do it. Um, and then the other one, in college, I used tanning beds for like one year of my life. Maddie, it was one year is my junior year. You're telling me you're not only a cruise family, but used a tanning bed. I just said it was a toxic trait, okay? It is a really toxic trait. And I only did it like a handful of times in college my junior year. And I know I will never do it again, but I did do it. I guess we've all done bad things. We've all done dumb shit. Did you guys spray tanning and you would go and somebody would spray tan you? Yeah. No, I mean I was orange for like the majority of my teen years. Um you go back and like look at my college years, and you can see like the change from my hand to my arms. Well, we can post a photo on Instagram of Olivia and Maddie's tanning escapades. Thankfully, mine was just a spray. But you know, I probably did breathe in a lot of bullshit to do that. I mean, I still do spray tan, so that's something I'm gonna continue to do, though. I love them. I just got lazy. Anyways, Ariel, so you're not a spray tan girly?

Ariel 7:35

Never done a spray tan. I also I tan. I rarely burn. I've gotten some bad sunburns, but I usually tan.

Mattie 7:40

How does it feel to be God's favorite?

Ariel 7:42

I am God's favorite, it's because I'm Jewish, guys. We're the chosen people.

Olivia 7:47

I feel like you do deserve a tan if you're Jewish. You guys have just like heroically gone through a lot. Like, it's okay. You deserve a tan. At least the world owes you as a nice tan. Yeah. Exactly.

Ariel 8:02

Okay, so before we talk more about sunscreen, I'm gonna back up for a minute and talk about ultraviolet radiation or UVR from the sun. Um, so side note, if there are any influencers in your feed telling you that the sun does not cause skin cancer, please unfollow them right now. I'm not saying you should avoid sunlight. I am saying you should ignore anyone who is incapable of critical thinking and thinks they quote, know secrets that doctors won't tell you, because that's not a thing.

Olivia 8:31

We are pro-vampire here. Also, the people who are like, here's this secret tip that scientists don't want you to know. Have you ever met a scientist? You can't get them to shut the fuck up. Like once they're on their topic. So when they're like, they don't want you to know, I'm like, no, they want you to know everything, and they want you to sit down and they want a captive audience and they want you to know. Like, there's no scientist who's gonna be keeping any any secret from you.

Ariel 8:56

Exactly. They want you to read their paper. Papers. All right, so the sun emits what is called optical radiation, and that includes the following types of energy, which are on different parts of the electromagnetic spectrum. Yay physics. This has really taken me back to like high school and college. Um, infrared, visible, and ultraviolet. UVR accounts for only 5% of the sun's radiation that makes it to planet Earth. And then UVR can be further divided into three types, which are defined by their wavelengths, and then from the longest to the shortest wavelengths, these are UVA, UVB, and UVC. And so while UVC has the greatest potential to harm skin, almost all of it is absorbed by the ozone layer and doesn't actually reach us. About 95% of UVR radiation from the sun is UVA, and then the rest is UVB. And UVB is what causes sunburn, like what we heard about in episode one, when Maddie thought she had yellow fever, had some poisoning, and she also just uh mentioned again a few minutes ago, UVB damages cellular DNA and triggers carcinogenesis, which is just a fancy way of saying turning healthy cells into cancer cells. UVA is responsible for skin tanning, damaging collagen in the skin, and causing signs of aging like wrinkles of note. UVR is strongest during the middle of the day. These are the peak hours of radiation, as well as at high altitude. And so for every thousand feet of elevate, sorry, for every 1,000 liters of elevation gain, UVR intensity increases about 15%. So that's that's quite a bit. Human use of sunscreen is not new to the modern era, so history shows that ancient Egyptians used things like jasmine and rice bran as topical agent for sun protection. And even back then, they wanted lighter skin to signal being part of a higher socioeconomic status. And can I get a collective boo to show our displeasure at attempts to manipulate skin color like this? Goes way back. No booze. Okay, I'll I'll put in a boo.

Olivia 10:54

I'm sorry, I'm in a bad moo. Collective boo.

Ariel 11:00

Ancient Greeks and Native Americans also use some blocking agents like olive oil and coniferous tree extract, respectively. So UVR was discovered in 1801. In the 1920s, scientists demonstrated the tanning effects of UVA and the burning effects of UVB exposure. This led to the invention of sunscreen with the active ingredients, which are UVB filters, of benzyl salicylate and benzycinamate. Hope I pronounced those correctly.

Olivia 11:29

I've been there. You probably correct you it doesn't matter. The people don't listen to this podcast for pronunciation at this point.

Ariel 11:35

Exactly. They're here for the the humor.

Olivia 11:38

Yeah.

Ariel 11:38

They're here to listen to us not say things correctly. In 1969, the aging effects of UVA were demonstrated, which illustrated the need for a UVA blocker. And so a decade later, able benzene was developed as the first UVA filter. Okay. So I'm gonna give you a pop quiz, and it is not multiple choice, but in the US, which federal agency is responsible for regulating sunscreen? Yeah, that's right.

Olivia 12:04

Okay. Let's put this on the question for the guys this weekend. Oh, that's yes.

Ariel 12:08

Yeah. I have not even started writing down questions for them. We need to do that.

Olivia 12:12

Oh, I'm gonna make like a whole Jeopardy, like like the music. Okay, we're we're going into it.

Ariel 12:18

In the US, a sunscreen is classified as a drug. And so there are three categories into which sunscreen active ingredients fall, and these are category one, generally recognized as safe and effective, which is GRACE or Grasse, G-R-A-S-E. I don't I've never actually heard anyone use the acronym. I've only heard GRASS without the effective part. There's category two, not GRACE, and then three, insufficient data to allow classification. And so because of the rigor needed to show effectiveness of different SPF products, fewer types of UVR filters have been approved in the US when compared to other countries. For example, in Europe, they are regulated as cosmetics under the European Commission. I'm not here to argue that one classification is better than the other. The regulatory processes are simply different. And for what it's worth, the US regulation is stricter than European regulation. And so people, you know, you know, you've both heard it. People love to talk about how Europe is so much healthier, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And this is one instance in which American products are actually more regulated.

Mattie 13:24

That's the number of influencers I have unfollowed because they're like, I went to Europe and their food is so much better and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, y'all. Do you not think that there's something this is a side note, do you not think that there's something about the fact that people who are lactose intolerant tend to have a better situation and outcomes when they're in Italy? And same with gluten. Like I hear a lot of people that are allergic to gluten and then they go to Europe and go to Italy, and they have an experience there that's just way better. I have an answer for you on the gluten one as a gluten girly. What I have been told is it because they have a different type of wheat because they are of a different climate than we do. So they grow like I think it's white wheat instead of like we have like a red wheat here. And how it's processed, it like is has like a different like how that that goes through like the milling process is like supposed to like minimize the amount of gluten that's in it. So it's because it's a different type of wheat and there's a different milling process that it makes it so you can probably tolerate gluten a little bit more in Europe. However, if you have celiac disease, the number of people who have told, either told me or I have heard that have celiac disease and they're like, I can eat gluten in Europe. No, you can't. Gluten is gluten, it's still gonna damage your digestive system. You might not throw up. So that's the thing. So when the people who are like, My mom has celiac and she eats in Europe and she's fine, I'm like it's coming to get you. It's still gluten. Gluten is still gluten. Fine. Okay, got it.

Olivia 14:50

Okay, this is helpful. And then Ariel, why do you think as like more pertinent to this episode? Why do you think that the FDA approved um some sort of sunscreen product here that's been available in in Europe for a long time? Why do you think that the FDA is more regulatory here than Europe on sunscreen?

Ariel 15:09

So we're we're gonna talk about the new sunscreen ingredient a little bit. Actually, I had this right here. Here is my segue.

Olivia 15:15

Then I'm psychic. It's fine.

Ariel 15:17

Yes, you're psychic. That actually was perfect. So the FDA approved a new sunscreen ingredient about six weeks ago, which was early June. And this was the first new ingredient to be added to over-the-counter products since the 1990s. So, like 30 years. It's called Bemo Trizinol or B E M T. Again, no clue if I said that correctly. So come at me if I was really wrong. It is a chemical sunscreen. It protects against both UVA and UVB rays, and it has a low absorption through the skin. So this product is not actually available on US shelves yet, but it will be this fall. I saw a couple different dates mentioned, and I'm not sure which is correct, but I saw like August, September. And so for the first 18 months that this specific type of product is available, there's only one company that will have exclusive rights to sell sunscreen containing BEMT in the US. And this is the European company DSM Fermanish. Side note, when I see or hear DSM, all I can think of is DOS Sound Machine from Pitch Perfect 2. I am obsessed with those movies.

Olivia 16:23

Right. My DSM is the diagnostic statistical manual or whatever.

Mattie 16:27

Are you thinking of the like the DSM 5? So we've got one for pitch perfect and one for mental illness. Sick.

Ariel 16:36

We're doing really good. Maddie, what do you think of?

Mattie 16:40

I also thought of the DSM 5.

Ariel 16:43

And I have a degree in psychology. I should have thought of the DSM, but I just thought of Pitch Perfect.

Mattie 16:48

DOS music machine or whatever. What was it?

Ariel 16:50

DOS Sound Machine. And so anyway, products from this company will be marketed as premium products along with a premium price tag because of course it will be this is America. I wonder if it's gonna rival Supergoop for price.

Mattie 17:04

I mean, when you're the only one on the market, you can kind of set the price to whatever you want it to be. So I'm sure it'll probably be like mid-range because they want people to buy it and they want people to use it, but they just don't want to make money on it.

Ariel 17:14

But also think of the marketing potential of this is a European sunscreen. It's so much more advanced, and now you can get it in the US and like pay a premium for this new type of chemical filter. I don't know. I think there's a good marketing opportunity to like make a lot of money off of it. Yeah. Especially knowing like Americans eat that shit up.

Olivia 17:33

Oh yeah.

Ariel 17:34

So I've used this acronym already a couple times, but are you too familiar with what SPF actually stands for? Sun protection factor. Correct. Olivia, did you know that?

Olivia 17:45

No, absolutely not.

Mattie 17:47

Guess Maddie. I knew the F was factor. I didn't know if it was like protection or like protecting.

Ariel 17:52

You got it. Sun protection factor. So generally SPF of 30 or more is recommended for maximum protection. And it measures how much UVB radiation is blocked by the product when applied correctly.

Mattie 18:02

I have a question, which you may answer, Ariel. There was like this rumor that only above like SPF 50 is like a max that you'll actually get protection and everything else above it is just marketing.

Olivia 18:15

Mm-hmm. It's the same with um bug spray. Yeah. It's like 30 for D, like that's the highest percentage, really. Anything above that is just marketing value. So 50 is that for SPF, where it's just like you're you're reaching maximum protection at that point as long as you're reapplying.

Mattie 18:33

Which so I didn't know if that was like a real thing or if that is just internet folklore that we've heard.

Ariel 18:39

I think that the amount of protection that you get increases so little from higher SPF that functionally doesn't matter. So, like, yes, it might be more protection, but it's you know, clinically not significant.

Olivia 18:52

That makes sense. The internet says that SPF 30 blocks 97% of UVB rays, while SPS 50 blocks 98%, while SPF 100 blocks 99%. So yeah, it looks like there's not much of a difference between those major SPF levels. And I think there's a price increase, so I'm sure part of it is marketing. Absolutely.

Ariel 19:14

It seems silly, but I want to talk about applying sunscreen. It should be applied 15 to 30 minutes before exposure to maximize protection. And the general rule is to apply more every two hours or even more frequently if you are doing vigorous activity slash sweating or swimming. And applying sunscreen, it seems pretty easy and intuitive, right? Like you've all put on lotion, you've all seen those spray bottles, you just rub it in, you spray it on whatever part of your body is exposed to the sun. In 2016, researchers from the University of Minnesota observed 2,187 people at the Minnesota State Fair applying sunscreen from public dispensers. So only 33% of people applied sunscreen to all sun-exposed skin, most of them just like getting their face and neck. 38% of people did not have additional sun protection measures. So think like hat, sunglasses, long sleeves, etc. People were significantly less likely to apply sunscreen when it's cloudy. Fun fact, you can get sunburned when it's cloudy. I've gotten a really bad sunburn when it's cloudy. I'm sure I'm not the only one. And I know I said I tan. This was like this was 18 years ago. I was at the beach all day. It's cloudy, I didn't wear a sunscreen and really regretted that. And it's also important to use enough sunscreen. So not using enough is quite common. So when you see a label that says apply generously, that's actually ambiguous and not helpful in determining the appropriate amount. Innovative dermatology, which is a dermatology practice in Texas, recommends using half a teaspoon for your face and neck and then a shot glass bull for your whole body. So there are two main types of sunscreen, and these are mineral and chemical. Mineral sunscreens have physical filters like zinc oxide and titanium dioxide. The way that these work is by reflecting or refracting UVR away from the skin. And so this leaves that like chalky white film that I'm sure you can picture. Like you've seen those sunscreens that make your face turn white. Yeah, those are mineral sunscreens. Chemical sunscreens, on the other hand, use compounds that absorb UVR. So these typically don't leave white residue on your skin. Apparently, a lot of people prefer chemical sunscreen because these make up a majority of sunscreen products sold in the US. And of note, there are natural UVR filters like B putty aloin, which is from aloe, in nut extract. And I read the scientific word for this. I didn't even bother to write it down because I know I can't pronounce it. Research shows that these are not effective in UVR protection and they're mainly used in tan fixing cosmetic products. So I want to close out by just talking about some claims you might hear about sunscreen and then breaking down whether they are fact or fiction. Okay, so first we'll talk about hormone disruption. So the claim is that sunscreen disrupts your hormones. Don't use it. Mattie, yes.

Mattie 22:00

I would like to first ask anyone who says this to name me three hormones and what they do in the body. That's a good tactic. That's my question.

Ariel 22:10

So I've not had the opportunity to do that, but like you see it online. Everyone loves to talk about hormones. So the actual facts to this claim is that there is a lot of nuance to it. So it's true that chemical UVR filters have been detected in both surface water and wastewater. They have been found in fish, which shows evidence of bioaccumulation and then getting into the food chain. Rightfully so, this has raised eyebrows and has been a trigger to study how these compounds affect human health. So in animal studies, aka fish and rats, these chemicals were shown to disrupt estrogen, androgen, and thyroid hormones. And in humans, the chemical filters have actually been found in breast milk and breast tissue. Oxybenzone specifically can be absorbed by the skin into the blood, crossing the blood brain, and blood placental barriers. Mineral sunscreens are much less likely to be absorbed into the skin, so this could be a better option for you if that's something you're concerned about. But what does this actually mean? We should be doing more research in humans. Be skeptical, ask questions. Like, I can see why these things are concerning, right? You don't want to think about the chemicals in your sunscreen getting absorbed into your body and causing poor health outcomes. So be skeptical, ask questions, but ask your doctor, don't ask an Instagram influencer. I guarantee you that influencer has some BS supplement that they're peddling as a safe and natural alternative to sunscreen. There is nothing more unnatural than a proprietary, unregulated supplement. You don't need that shit. And so despite the uncertainty, we don't have data that suggests that sunscreen is causing meaningful disruptions in our hormones. So keep on keeping on with your sun safety practices. What we see so far is that these the absorption of these chemicals are not causing any meaningful effects. Remember, the dose makes the

Olivia 23:55

poison!

Mattie 23:56

Poison.

Ariel 23:57

Exactly.

Olivia 23:57

That's another question we're gonna ask the guys.

Mattie 24:00

And correlation does not equal causation. No, that's gonna be the next question that I think we have to ask them.

Ariel 24:07

Absolutely. I didn't even think to ask them that, but that's such a good one. Okay, moving on to the next claim about sunscreen. The claim is that sunscreen causes cancer. The fact this is absolutely false. The incidence of skin cancer is rising despite an increase in available sunscreen products. For example, cutaneous malignant melanomas or CMMs have increased over 40% since 1990. So what gifts? One, not using enough sunscreen leaves you vulnerable to sun damage. We talked about this. How much do you apply? It's easy to underapply. And then two, this is really interesting. There is a mistaken belief that a higher SPF means you have more protection than you actually do. And so people often just don't reapply frequently enough or they don't put on enough sunscreen at all. Three, those who are diagnosed with skin cancer may not start applying sunscreen or practicing sun safety religiously until after a diagnosis. For evidence-linking sunscreen use and developing melanoma is weak. Epidemiological studies have not evaluated the effectiveness of sunscreen use on CMM incidents. Did either of you see that viral video that went around? I think it was last year, like a little over a year ago, it was a woman making a watermelon smoothie to drink as a natural smoothie to protect against the sun. Actually, I was looking for it earlier. I couldn't find the original, but I found a couple of like professionals reacting. But you know what I'm talking about?

Olivia 25:34

Yes, drinking to prevent the sun.

Ariel 25:36

Drinking watermelon.

Olivia 25:37

Oh no, but that doesn't sound like it would work.

Ariel 25:41

It doesn't. So this video, it's a woman, she's young, she's got a baby, like she's wearing a front carrier, and she's making her watermelon smoothie, and she's like explaining it as she's making it, and she's talking about how watermelon has lycopene, and lycopene supports and nourishes and hydrates the skin. Um so the TLDR is that eating watermelon is not gonna protect you from skin cancer. Watermelon is delicious, so eat it if you like it. It's hydrating, it's got nutrients in it, but it will not protect you from sun damage. Also, that smoothie she made did look really good. It was watermelon, lime, and some kind of green. It's giving big, like Donning Kruger energy. Whenever I hear lycopene, I remember so I like ketchup on French fries and stuff, not on eggs, that's disgusting, but on French fries. And I remember like a big marketing thing was that tomatoes and ketchup have lycopene. And so that's what I think of when I think of lycopene. Do you remember seeing that in ketchup bottles?

Olivia 26:38

No, but everybody should start drinking ketchup and see if it works. You know, we should do ketchup smoothies and see if it works. I mean, is the argument that there's more lycopene in tomatoes than there is watermelon? Because in fact, then we should be having ketchup smoothies, right?

Mattie 26:53

A tomato smoothie sounds disgusting.

Olivia 26:56

Okay, this is an actual thing that people look up. Do tomatoes or watermelon have more lycopene?

Ariel 27:01

Well, what's the answer?

Olivia 27:02

Sun-dried tomatoes have the most in comparison to watermelon. So my argument stands you should be making a ketchup smoothie.

Mattie 27:10

Hear me out. Hear me out. We just have tomato sauce and eat spaghetti instead. I'm not saying we should think out of the box, but I think we should think in the box.

Ariel 27:25

I'm with you. Okay, we're gonna move on to the next claim. So around skin irritation, the claim is that sunscreen irritates your skin. The facts are that yes, some people's skin does not do well with some types of sunscreens, right? A lot of people have sensitive skin and have products that they can't use for whatever reason. Um, so this is not unique to sunscreen. But with sunscreen specifically, people may experience contact dermatitis, which is a red itchy rash on your skin or an allergy, and a common allergy, which was discovered in 1956, is to the chemical PABA, which is paraaminobenzoic acid. And this is due to the breakdown and oxidation of products within the epidermis. But again, people can be allergic to other ingredients like emollients, preservatives, emulsifiers, and fragrances. So the solution here is not to just ditch the sunscreen. The solution is to find one that works for your skin, right? There are so many products out there. This would be something that you could tolerate.

Olivia 28:22

This is not something that they paid us to say, but I use color science, which is a foundation that like it's like almost like a BB cream and it has SPF 30 in it. Um, and I highly recommend it for people that have sensitive skin because I feel like anytime I've had sunscreen on my face, I break out. And this is the one thing I've found that doesn't break me out. So said it was color science. Yeah, it's it's not cheap. It ain't cheap, and they're not paying for us to say this. I wish they would because then I wouldn't have to pay for it. But it is so good, and I will keep buying it.

Ariel 28:56

That's good to know. I did learn our work has the sunbus come every year, and they do a free like skin check, which is cool. So I did that this year, and I learned that tinted sunscreen is the best way to block UVA UVB rays, which I didn't know before. And I always was like, I don't want to buy tinted sunscreen because I feel like it'll look weird, but they gave me a sample and you can't really notice the color. That's good to know because that's what this is.

Olivia 29:21

It tints to your skin foundation with sunscreen in it. So I had no idea about that. Now I'm shopping for foundation. Great.

Ariel 29:28

It's great. Highly recommend. Yeah, my morning face cream has SPF in it. Okay, so moving on to environmental concerns. So the claim is that sunscreen is bad for the environment. I'm sure both of you have heard this before.

Mattie 29:41

I was gonna ask if we were gonna talk about reef damage from sunscreen.

Ariel 29:45

You bet we are. Um, so the fact is that the discussion around hormones requires a lot more nuance than just saying sunscreen is bad for the earth. It is true that UVR filters have been found in water sources. I mentioned that earlier, and then specific ingredients, including octocryline and butyl methoxy dibenzoyl methane, which is avobenzene, have been reviewed in detail. We don't have any long-term studies showing effects of these in ecosystems that's really more short-term. So some filters like oxygenzone and octinoxate are believed to bleach coral reefs and are banned in certain places. Like my husband and I went to Hawaii for honeymoon, and I distinctly remember we couldn't use certain types of sunscreen because of reef damage. And of course, you can buy whatever they allow locally. And but what we're lacking is evidence showing coral reef bleaching in the real world. So rather than just in like a lab setting, there are other known factors that contribute to the bleaching of coral reefs, and these include climate change and a decrease in ocean salinity. And so what we really need here, again, is just some further research. And I don't think that the answer is to stop using sunscreen, but rather to improve our products that we know they're not harming the environment or hormones or whatever. And I also know this is a lot easier said than done.

Mattie 31:00

I think the sunscreen thing, though, is an easy thing to put on the consumer when really it's the companies that are destroying our environment. But like buying reef-safe sunscreen is something you can put on the consumer way easier than you could a company.

Ariel 31:16

Yeah, it's just like the idea of the carbon footprint, which was coined by BP, a petroleum company. And like, oh, like look at your individual carbon footprint. Meanwhile, they're polluting the earth and driving climate change. So it's kind of like that situation.

Olivia 31:30

You're right. I believe that we should name every hurricane moving forward uh after a major corporation.

Mattie 31:37

I like that. Or a billionaire.

Ariel 31:39

I like that too.

Olivia 31:40

Like Cyclone BP, you know, hurricane Exxon, any of those. Tornado Trump.

Mattie 31:49

Tornado Trump. Um tornadoes don't get names, right? How do they take the names for hurricanes? I wanna I wanna know about that.

Olivia 31:58

I guess they just go through people's names, but they switch it off gender-wise, right? Yeah. Things that are named after you that are bad. Did I tell you that I just found out those videos that they're making people watch in pro-life states about how babies are developing in the wound in their like anti-abortion videos, they're called baby Olivia videos.

Mattie 32:19

Oh my gosh. How does that make you feel?

Olivia 32:22

It doesn't make me feel good, Maddie. No. That's the truth of the matter. I do not feel good.

Mattie 32:27

No, that's fair. I mean, my middle name is Olivia, and I'm upset about it. So I can only imagine you with your full name.

Olivia 32:32

Yeah, and then all these people naming their children Olivia right now, like, stop it. All of your kids are incredibly annoying and they shouldn't be named Olivia.

Ariel 32:40

Okay, so these are all like the myths that I had.

Mattie 32:45

Don't drink sunscreen. Don't do it. If you want to eat things that like help support your skin, do it. Don't eat sunscreen.

Ariel 32:54

Yeah, eat your watermelon if you like watermelon, but don't eat it thinking it's going to protect you from skin cancer, because that's not what watermelon does.

Mattie 33:01

Eat your watermelon and wear sunscreen. You can do both.

Ariel 33:04

Yeah, they're not mutually exclusive. So I just want to leave you a couple of takeaways. Uh so first, stop getting health advice from influencers without credentials. If you need to turn to social media for health advice, find people with the credentials to back them up. Like I follow some dietitians, I follow some doctors, I like their content. But if someone's job title is literally just influencer, like take what they are saying with a grain of salt. Maybe don't follow blindly. And finally, people will take like a little fact or something that is true and blow it out of proportion. Like lycopene is good for you. That does not mean that lycopene is going to protect your skin from skin damage.

Mattie 33:46

It seems too good to be true. It's probably too good to be true. And you should not be drinking your SPF. That's what I've learned today.

Ariel 33:53

Yeah, the bottom line: do not drink your SPF.

Mattie 33:56

Put it on your skin. Don't drink sunscreen.

Public Health in Pop Culture

Mattie 33:59

  So I was having a hard time trying to find something pop culture to talk about. And I figured it out. We're gonna talk about Instagram. And there is a one specific thing with Instagram because we can talk about Instagram as a whole and social media as a whole episode. We can talk about AI as a whole episode. But the big thing, I don't know if y'all saw this on Instagram, is that Meta was coming out with Muse Image AI, and it was basically marketed as a way for you to like connect with your favorite influencers and public accounts and make images like for your feed AI based off of their feed. So it was like using their pictures, like using everything. And it was super creepy. It really, this big push was mostly done by Hollywood because it was trying to protect their actors, because it's like they're using your name and your likeness without your permission. So there were, yeah, there's a whole lot of videos on how to turn it off because every it was an automatic opt-in, and which is a crazy way to do that for something with AI that is so invasive to your privacy. Um, but it's meta, so what's new? So now it's no longer available. So this was sent out like two weeks ago. There was such a huge uproar about it, and now it was basically taken off the market. So this is what Meta said in a statement. Our intent was to provide a useful creative tool to give people control over whether their public content could be referenced in this way. We've heard the feedback so that this feature missed the mark, so it is no longer available. But it's like one in a very long line of missteps on AI companies trying to do crazy shit and then the public being like, don't do that crazy shit, and then being like, oh, sorry, oopsie. It's so sketchy. I don't know. That whole thing was really creepy. It was SAGAFTRA was the the largest labor union for actors, said it was an utter miscalculation of public sentiment around AI use. And they were encouraging all of their folks in their union to turn this feature off to protect their name and image because they should be able to make the money from that because it's their fucking face.

Ariel 36:05

Okay, the word miscalculation is not the right word. It's not a miscalculation, it's a huge invasion of privacy. Like, I'm sorry.

Mattie 36:14

Miscalculation is totally the wrong word because it is. It's a gross invasion of privacy. Using your face, if you think about these bigger influencers that have like millions of followers, like hundreds of thousands of people are gonna be using their images, their style, their aesthetic preferences without them knowing and potentially making money off of it, marketing it. Like that's not cool at all. AI is not cool. The whole thing freaks me out.

Olivia 36:41

I'm not surprised by that because Marcus Eckenberg has like the worst fucking ideas between his like metaverse where everyone would have their own character, like Sim, and he put like billions of dollars in it and then it didn't work out. And now he has his glasses, his meta glasses. I honestly think he's like one of the worst contenders for a lack of care and also consistent invasion of privacy.

Mattie 37:05

Yes, he is the worst. He is the worst. Marcus Uckerberg is a mouth-breathing sentient q-tip, like that man. He is awful.

Olivia 37:18

Where do these things come from with inside you? Wake up and you're like, I just, I just know how to describe the worst man in the world. Like, is that just part of you? Because I'm just fully impressed with what you just said.

Mattie 37:30

One of my best qualities is I am able to accurately describe everybody to a T in a way that will make sense to you because everybody can picture a mouth-breathing, sentient use Q-tip. And what do you know? It's Mark Zuckerberg. Truly. I think nail on the head here.

Olivia 37:47

No, I I think you're right. I just want to know how you became this descriptive individual.

Mattie 37:51

I don't know, it made me like this.

Olivia 37:53 Olivia 37:53

No, I agree with you. This is a this is a disaster. It's also, I mean, we talk about public health impacts, but I've been talking to my husband who's a lawyer, he's a prosecutor, right? So he's constantly dealing with crime and prosecuting individuals that have committed crimes. And a lot of it is hard when you go into court and you're in trial because there's video evidence. And so he's just anticipating at some point that the defense is gonna be like, well, that's an AI video. This is an AI video, you know? So, like, there are things that are changing the way that we see reality right now and changing how we perceive reality. And it's already a problem now.

Mattie 38:29

Yeah. And it's only gonna get worse. It's such a huge mindfuck. Fuck Mark Zuckerberg. He is a Q-tip. I hate men. I hate the wealthy that billionaire level of men. They are the worst humans. The worst. Hate them all. Anyways, this is good.

Olivia 38:45

We'll just mention that Maddie is marrying a man. He's a good one,

Mattie 38:48

but I tell him all the time about how much I hate men. For my bachelorette party, I had koozies made and they say men can't read on them because I say that all the time.

Olivia 38:58

I can't wait to get one. So thank you for that.

Mattie 39:00

You're welcome. But it was so funny because I was talking to my friend who was making them and she was like, we just need to put one of your sayings on it. So I said in my group chats, I was like, What are some of the best sayings? Immediately, boom, men can't read. And I was like, Yes. And then it was followed by men don't deserve rights, and then it was emphasized a bunch of times. All right.

Olivia 39:17

Well, if the men that can't read are listening, we don't hate you, but we we are disturbed by the general sentient and purpose of all of you when you come together and make decisions in the government right now. That is a fucking problem. So that is part of it.

Mattie 39:32

I have one correction of that statement. I hate you. Olivia might not, but I do.

Olivia 39:36

Trying to get subscribers, Maddie. I don't want to work anymore.

Mattie 39:41

Sorry.

Olivia 39:42

Maddie doesn't want you to subscribe, but I still do. Um, I will sell my foot photos if I need to at this point.

Ariel 39:49

T hat is, Olivia, that mark is so oversaturated, unfortunately. Yeah. Because everyone's trying to sell their foot photos.

Mattie 39:55

So here's my thing. This is my new insight because a lot of those men that I hate, that's part of their kink is to be hated on. I'll do that shit. I'll laugh in your face, I'll call you fucking ugly, I'll spit on you, and you can pay me. It's healthy for me, it's healthy for you.

Olivia 40:11

But we can't move on from the fact that Ariel knows that the foot market is saturated. So, Ariel, could you please back up and explain to us how you know that?

Mattie 40:19

I think it's just a generally well-known thing. I don't know if that's just an ongoing bit, but I also know that the foot market is oversaturated.

Ariel 40:25

Yeah, because it's literally, it's so easy. Like you just take pictures at your feet, anyone can do it. Not everyone's gonna send their socks in. Well, we we'll talk more this weekend.

Mattie 40:35

There was a phase where I was like, I'm gonna sell my underwear.

Olivia 40:39

And are we gonna have like a marketing meeting and it's like gonna be about selling our underwear and our socks? Because if that's the case, I should be prepared for this.

Mattie 40:47

No, this is what this is the photo that needs to be on my foot finders. It was we decide to do that photo. Where is this?

Olivia 40:54

I'm glad that you have thought of this, Maddie, but I'm I'm trying to back up a little bit. Apparently, we're gonna have a marketing meeting, and the marketing meeting is about what's next and how we can't, we don't want to work our jobs anymore.

Mattie 41:03

It's me drinking wine with the wine glass on my phone.

Ariel 41:08

I'm impressed.

Mattie 41:10

Thank you.

Olivia 41:11

I can't if you want to see the photo of Maddie holding wine with her feet and drinking it, you need to subscribe. That's and you need to subscribe for like three months minimum. Like this is not a five-dollar kind of photo. This is a $15 photo. This is a $15 kind of photo. So you can subscribe for like three months, or you can just phone one movie 15 bucks. Either works. Um, and I will report back after a marketing meeting that apparently we're having, which I did not know about selling these socks. I don't think any of us knew about it until now.

Olivia 41:40

Um okay. On behalf of all of us, I think we need to do recalls. There's not been a recall on our socks yet. So let's just move along. Uh public health is on your shelf.

Olivia 41:50

Sorry, why are you crying?

Mattie 41:52

Because you know what won't give you explosive diarrhea. Buying our underwear and socks. Please continue.

Olivia 42:01

Yeah, we're not selling our underwear to you guys. Um, this is ridiculous. Uh-huh. Truly.

What's on Your Shelf?

Olivia 42:07

So uh 719, we got a Zen principal has a moringa leaf powder capsule salmonella contamination. I just, I feel like of all the things we've talked about in the last five months that we've been doing this, do not have anything that has moringa in it.

Mattie 42:23

Moringa, again,

Olivia 42:24

it is just a constant issue in our recalls here. Um next, we have what is labeled as CV, JB, and Markenmore as iceberg lettuce that has possible cyclospora contamination. And I want to just mention that is actually Taylor Farms. Basically, Taylor Farms is everywhere.

Mattie 42:43

There are like two or three major lettuce producers in North America. So they all come from the same farms, basically.

Olivia 42:51

And it's apparently iceberg product. I'm gonna be really honest with you, though. I don't want to call myself a conspiracy theorist, but the way that the FDA has been communicating this situation, and we will talk about this in a subscription-only episode, has been giving vibes of corruption. I won't say it's corrupt, it's giving vibes of corruption. And also that this is what happens when Doge eliminates a majority of your staff. So from the beginning of this outbreak to the point of saying it's positive, then it's a false positive, right after Taylor Farms execs meet with the White House, like it is giving the public the option to say it is a conspiracy.

Olivia 43:25

There is a reason why we are very careful about what we communicate to the public, how we communicate it, how we test for things. So it's just, it's just a bunch of things culminating at this point. And it's just a mess. At this point, just moving forward, I want you to know that you should not be eating Taylor Farms related products. I would probably avoid all of them at this point and all this back and forth about false positives, epidemiological tracking and contact tracing is saying it's still Taylor Farms. It's just probably safer to try and buy local and from farmers' markets if you can. And that's that's it. God, I could go on forever about this.

Ariel 43:59

Can I add one thing to that? Yeah. It's another hot take. There are so many greens out there. Iceberg lettuce is disgusting. Eat any other green. It will taste better.

Olivia 44:09

God, it is so bad. It is filler, truly. I'm glad that we all have hot takes on lettuce here. Um gluttonous rice balls with black sesame filling from Kongguan Corporation. It has undeclared peanuts.

Ariel 44:22

You said gluttonous first, and that made me laugh.

Olivia 44:24

It is it is glutinous. I can't do this. Why do I speak? Why did you ask me to be on a podcast, Ariel?

Ariel 44:32

You heard me stumble over half of the words I just said a few minutes ago. It's okay.

Olivia 44:38

All right. Organic IQF frozen blueberries from Greenwise has a possible E. coli contamination. High protein chopped chicken and duck flavor wet food from I guess that's the company from no, from Pedigree.

Olivia 44:50

There's another thing called Orby's serene scalp-densifying shampoo, and it's contaminated with a bacteria that I can't say out loud. So these are the ones that you don't want to deal with.

Olivia 45:00

I would at this point just focus on Taylor Farms, truly, because fuck this noise. That was our recalls. Don't eat lettuce if it comes from Taylor Farms.

Mattie 45:08

Don't drink sunscreen.

Olivia 45:11 Olivia 45:11

Tomato smoothies are just as good as watermelon smoothies in some cultures. Ow, ow! Ow! Ow! Oh, fuck that hurt. Ow. Sorry, my cat just ow, uh yeah.

Ariel 45:22

Venus does not agree that tomato smoothies are just as good.

Mattie 45:26

Oh that hurt. Why didn't you let go? No, don't touch me.